For some tasks it matters not yet it is never good enough for others. This is untrue, it depends how the reflection works. One more that people easily forget. Wall-mounting hooks are included, so you can hang this design vertically or horizontally as soon as it arrives, or lean it against an open wall. Ofertas de trabajo publicadas en toda España. It has runtime type checks for `defcustom` things, but never seen type checking anywhere else (except for occasional runtime asserts). You’ve named your interface Person, but perhaps even Emailable could serve the purpose. OK but it's not Python. And the REPL allows me to very quickly explore everything that is structured confusingly and hard to read. Clojure data-model being immutable also means it can systematically be unraveled. Sometimes, we shouldn't care about that. The auto-completion is purely Python's dynamic-dispatch problem though. You have length (working only on lists), string-length, vector-length, bytevector-length etc. Right, spending all your effort on the one true design gets you in architect astronaut territory. I think, overall, this brings much better job security than trying to sneak technology to create a project that only I would be able to maintain. It is repetitive and it has a lot of boilerplate and it does not suit well every application. Runtime checking is used by default but can be disabled. I trust we will find more and more highly-optimized code that is easy to read. Curry-Howard isomorphism and so on? This reminds me of some quote that "Junior developers write 1 bug per 10 lines of code, experienced coders know they write 1 bug per 10 lines of code". Languages with frameworks like Java+Spring, Ruby+Rails etc. With those things in place, macros can absolutely be a net positive for code understanding. This is not specific to Lisp, it happens to all dynamically typed languages. 2/3（月）節分豆まき. The question is then, /where/ should one draw the line when trying to prove certain properties of code; which properties are worthwhile proving? This leads to disastrous codebases, and is not at all limited to lisps or dynamically typed languages. Static typing is either constraining, or it is a Turing Tarpit (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_tarpit). Nice to note is that we get the warnings instantly because during development we can compile the function we are working on with a keystroke. > but in Clojure it is just enough to get couple of people that are intelligent enough to write macros but not experienced enough to understand the dangers of lack framework forcing the structure of your application. As an example, if testing a 'send' function that takes a sender, content/media type, and recipients where recipients can be a single contact or a group, one shouldn't have to check that all combinations of content/media-type works with single or group recipients and other variable option variables. Again, lots of boilerplate. You have a lot of freedom when you program in plain Java and Ruby vs. using frameworks in those languages. When you call up a variable or a function or macro, the intent is to return some kind of result. Coming from an OO background I always cringed at the 15,000 line classes with 2000 line methods. Even better, use `unknown` when at all possible instead of `any` - it's like `any` but you need to assert/inspect it to unwrap anything from it. I don't deny that. And error out immediately if the wrong type is passed in. LoopiaDNS ger dig möjlighet att själv hantera och administrera alla dina domännamn på ett ställe.. Med Loopias omtyckta kundzon gör du enkelt de inställningar du behöver för dina domännamn, såsom vidarebefordring av webbtrafik eller e-post. I don't think that's really true. It's a bit like learning to ride a bike: initially it looks not possible to balance, steer and move forward at the same time. Or would it make the code less readable, because of the additional indent?". It makes sense. > Languages based on the λ-calculus make it really easy to “play back the code” in your head. Some programming languages will be glad to accept a string and treat it as a number -- see Duck Typing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_typing). Lets say you have a list of things and they have the name according to what they are, lets use "things" as a placeholder. I do think static typing pays for itself in the long term. It's a PITA.) Yours may not be a formal proof (which may be what leads to some bugs), but reasoning about code is something that software developers do all the time. It is the frameworks that give more rigidity and boilerplate, not so much those languages themselves (although Java does have more boilerplate than Ruby). I really wish Elisp (the lisp I'm mostly dealing with) had some sort of types, at least for simple things list 'associative list', 'string', 'function reference', 'nullable thing', this would massively save me time on catching bugs. Static type checking also doesn't help with mixed up variables: calling f(x, y) which should have been f(y, x) or something else, where x and y have the same type. I use Clojure on a daily basis. In order to to be fooled, we just have to read the entire top-level form from the outside in. Edit: One last thing that keeps me hopeful is Emacs, probably the oldest most distributed development project ever using a Lisp, and I find it pretty easy to understand its code base and add to it. In fact, I treat "I am not after job security" as one of the important points when presenting to potential employers. I haven't yet had to inherit a Clojure project where I wasn't involved with from the start. All the time and energy and money, burned like so much trash, because not Lisp. Is there something that can be done so there is less chance they are going to misuse it? I often forget even my own code's purpose six months after having written it, let alone code written by teams of hundreds of people and millions of lines of code. [1] https://www.cs.ubc.ca/~gregor/papers/kiczales-ECOOP1997-AOP.... yes, a byte code parser and reflection might have achieved the same, but the library made it breezy. Lisp has symbol-based auto-completion which doesn't suffer from the same issue (search is a different story!). is irrelevant. Then you’d need to create a wrapper function to dispatch it to its appropriate sub function. So maybe Lisp would be a revelation, but I just can’t bring myself to care. Writing code means writing bugs, no matter how pretty your code is. This has quite a few benefits; you're not tied to a constructive proof on the type-level ala Haskell, Rust, Go etc... and you can automate a large part of trivial proofs. 3. For Literate Agda source. The two worlds are coming closer. Look at something like Lean. This is the static vs dynamic type debate in a nutshell. How is the room of improvement on that matter? > sinking complexity from a bunch of code. It also allows you to shadow a binding from an outer scope for the purpose of using it in the inner scope. Lack of expressive power in the language can also lead to a disaster. > I have never had a static type checker (regardless of how sophisticated it is) help me prevent anything more than an obvious error (which should be caught in testing anyway). No, it's like saying "I can't remember the last time I needed to turn my document into a string literal embedded into the word processor's source code, so that a spelling error could be caught when the word processor is recompiled. What makes Perl or Clojure such fun languages to work with is they don't impose structure on you. For wasting attention. Not only because the pace of evolution in the language is better for long term careers. Things like the macro system in Lisp encourage defining your own problem specific DSL, which is great for individual developer productivity, but bad for involving lots of developers. Having tests is very important for documentation, regressions, end-to-end/integartion testing, but every test for something stupid as 'throws on passing null' is just a time drain (unless you're launching rockets or something of course). It would be a one-liner. It's definitely the most clean/elegant Lisp around. If you consider all possible programs, some are invalid, some are valid, and some are valid and useful. That is powerful but only if you know how to structure the application yourself, know what kind of choices you need to make and know ins and outs of various options. In this case, getEmails() isn't expecting a group of students or a group of faculty, but rather a group of people that can be emailed. > You have to be really incompetent to write a typical Java service in a way where it is no longer possible to develop it at all. The way I use it is to quickly develop adhoc tools and PoCs I also have reservations about the claim that most developers even know what great code _LOOKS_ like, I've seen too many terrible codebases that were claimed to be well designed by their creators. Author's opinion about performance is also one sided. And don't get me started on (what Guy Steele Jr. calls) Computer Science Meta-notation, which has no official standard, and isn't a runnable language. Pascal allows it, IIIRC. Anyway, in the meantime, I discovered a language called Joy. static typing not helping too much, but saw dependent types as something interesting. Numbers 0 to 25 contain non-Latin character names. https://cs.brown.edu/~sk/Publications/Papers/Published/fkt-t... https://lexi-lambda.github.io/blog/2019/11/05/parse-don-t-va... https://2ality.com/2015/06/tail-call-optimization.html. What static analysis grants you is checking a "for all x" claim, without literally checking each x. Maybe you use code-generation for this? For an individual hacker, dynamically typed languages make a lot of sense. That's not the same thing. > Author seems to have over 25 years of experience. More dynamically typed languages are supporting static type markup (like Python). And if I saw that being done with any regularity at all, that would be great. Read the "Preface" of "Programming in Ada 2012" for details. There are two types of programmers: programmers who know that static typing is the only sane way to write robust, scalable, maintainable code, and programmers who haven't been in this profession for long enough. If given, must be "bird" or "latex". They (I mean novice developers) would be constantly repeating rules they don't know why they are following, but heard it is important or seen it as popular. To get the real meaning (the belief is attributed to Bob), you need the whole sentence. e.g. The origins of AOP are in Smalltalk and the Meta-Object Protocol, I think. Our testers succeeded in churning out a lot of bug reports. Assuming you are mature developer, you will know how to use these to solve your problem but if you don't then that's where the problem starts. You could write two functions for each data type in your system to convert to a Map or some such and back, which lets you operate on the maps. I am learning Forth and Idris in my spare time these days. What thing that violates a type check would be "perfectly fine to do"? It depends on how sophisticated your type system is. Which, considering JavaScript is a language many compile to, sucks. Pure hubris. Have a look at, "The Interlisp Programming Environment". It could just be my personal lack of experience with Lisp, but there seems to be little standard in naming conventions and code formatting. Isn't this just plainly false? (I am a huge fan of both Lisps and ML-family languages.). But having a finite number of test cases that tests some x is not the same as testing for all x. All of that is a straw man example if we are arguing against incomplete static type systems, because the iron man is incomplete static with strong dynamic checks. What do you think will happen when you refactor such code to a better design? In a language like Java, the Byzantine syntax and semantics enforce some minimum level of structure on the code. That said a similar sort of thing is possible, for example, in python with `patchy` [2], and perhaps many other languages? Yet, it doesn't eliminate the need for testing; nothing does. For fucking around with syntax and bullshit for fwcking decades when we had Lisp. I limit my cleverness to PoCs, adhoc tools and emergencies. The latter is a reasonable choice given that the underlying VM needs some unit of linkage and scope ... sort of like criticising C and C++ for requiring that everything be inside a function, but there are reasons for doing it that way. But it can still be done, like you mention, by using reflection. So did I start using Lisp? Lisp scales on the size of problem that a small close knit team can solve. I try to do good job and think for the outcomes for the employer first. Lisp doesn't have operators. Now new developers are barely able to change anything without blowing it up. This is a confusing example, because in a REPL steps of compilation and evaluation are interleaved. One example: A telecom product that processed phone calls. Does this mean that the type system is faulty? Maybe the ambient help is so constant that it no longer even registers in long-term memory. Because C doesn't have run-time safety, unit tests do not reliably flush out type errors; programs with type errors can pass unit tests by fluke due to undefined behavior. I share this sentiment, and I think a lot of it also comes Age: 17, No! Honestly I’ve seen just as many disastrous codebases written in highly structured, statically typed languages. A productive and profitable country of feet and pounds and inches, but significant progress is usually made in labs full of meters and liters. When you optimize, your code needs to be closer to computer language again, and therefore further away from human readability. It would be a bad language that constantly surprises the user. Show me some code you believe it's impossible to make reliable without "battle-testing" it over a decade, and I will show you how. Instead take action to support your statements or opinions and put up some convincing argument. The library author wrote two books as well[1][2]. Register now and start earning bitcoins with your pastes. I guess it's more of a 'functional language' artifact, e.g. I'm perfectly fine with a type checker that only gives me warnings but still allows me to run the code even if it isn't satisfied. Yeah the REPL in your typical Common Lisp is much more integrated than nrepl/cider in Clojure. Where is the Manhattan Project to lower the cost of logic? But we need guards to protect us from the freedom of too much expressivity, see for example defmacro vs. syntax-rules/syntax-case etc. I don't forget what types my functions accept as I am writing a program. I 100% agree that disastrous codebases are every bit as likely in other languages. I'd rather people use well thought out mechanism for extension and "cleverness" than some poor ad-hoc variant to do the same. They’re playing the code back in their head to see how it behaves. I am constantly looking for ways to write code that works in all scenarios, provably. Interesting point about no. Teaching the lambda calculus is no less real to me than any other part of my life. For years I used to say, "I'm keeping a bank of brain cells free for learning Lisp one day." provide specs/types across module boundaries only. (thanks, checked). An excellent analogy would be the metric system vs imperial measurement system, at least in the USA. Are you /seriously/ suggesting that one should use Agda or Coq for most code? You should apply again, the company the author works for is looking for people “Proficient in Java and C++ with strong object-oriented design skills”. This work is finally possible because I had put it on hold due to not wanting to write such code without a pattern matcher, which we now have. For example, you can pass in a single string, or a list of strings. No, of course not. Here was the perfect, the complete, the only needful language. There are will be some new features in the matcher too. I have used aspectj in somewhat unhealthy dose in my project. The author has been a researcher, and then moved into management, now working on a relatively simple e-commerce project with one of the most hilarious mission statements I've ever read. ", This is not an apt analogy at all. There's no simple systematic method to unraveling the mess, like there is in Clojure. Filenames *.lagda. > Most implementations of Common Lisp prevent shadowing builtin symbols. floating point to integer conversion is silently implicit, with undefined behavior if the value is out of range. So maybe things like you should have your objects accept injected dependencies. > I ended up studying Programming Languages at Indiana University with Dan Friedman (of The Little Lisper / The Little Schemer fame). Never dereferenced a null pointer, or tried using a list instead of a set? みなさんこんにちは、いつものtです。 早いもので2月も一週間、本日東京は今年一番の冷え込みでした。 I can point just as many disasters written in statically typed languages, and they tend to be the “interesting” ones with fancy type systems in the ML family like Scala, Haskell, and Rust. Depending on your flavour of Lisp, there are a /ton/ of naming conventions. Here's a good reference for Scheme/Racket [1], under the section "Names". > mess it up [...] like bringing in Aspect J, > What makes Perl or Clojure such fun languages to work with. "Oh the expense!" > In statically typed languages, a type is mainly (but not only) a compile time construct. Testing tends to validate design from the point of testability. Full kontroll över dina domännamn med Loopia. C security holes are strawman). I'm always annoyed by constant quoting in Elisp because the same type of brackets (only `()`) is used. And the usual HN responses/arguments. The original argument is what I consider one of the biggest beginner mistakes. Another big benefit is the simple syntax makes complex metaprogramming achievable. Instead of giving the interface an explicit name, I think you could instead use something like this: > Note that functions like sin and cos have exactly the same type signature, yet it is disastrous if you mix them up. Exactly my experience. If so capture it as x, and also capture the value as y: By the way, to see quips like "Upgrade to TXR Pro for a one-time fee of learning Lisp!" That is powerful but only if you know how to structure the application yourself, know what kind of choices you need to make and know ins and outs of various options. And things that I know (and can justify or even formally prove for my use cases) are perfectly fine to do are suddenly not. And it's still an one-liner or close in a language without much ceremony (e.g. Reliability is defined by how likely it is to fail in face of junior team members operating / developing the piece of code. If team members have trouble understanding or working with my products it is always my fault. Can one prove this using type systems? I am claiming that you're wrong and your counter-argument is that I will learn to be like you one day. A starter book like SICP thus does not use this prominent feature: it does mostly NOT define & use macros. You could make the function take in the union of all possible data types in your system, and then write a mapping function for each one. Also keep in mind the article is in the context of Lisp, so it would be static types on top of a garbage collected memory managed runtime with runtime type checks. I think Dan Friedman might have said something similar about The type system is a proof system. I don't judge the quality of C# code by looking at amateur Unity scripts for example. There is code that's just egregiously bad. But I am drawn to lisp and started the SICP book. Even if it were ONLY for documentation, that would already make it pretty useful, in my opinion, like Erlang's type specifications, although there is a static analysis tool called dialyzer that identifies software discrepancies such as type errors and such. In Common Lisp, with its generic-function based object system, you can extend the operation of any function at any time to cover new types. It may, in the grand scheme of things, be only a small reduction in what you can assume without careful study. Even novice developers would typically learn Spring and create applications that contain controllers, views, repositories, services, etc. Plus, at a certain point, it's about tradoffs and compromises. ", but that has never worked for me, because I think you need to make a context manager for that? Here is an example limitation of typescript's type system that I routinely run into while developing real code [1]. This is possible to do without dependent types. I think Lisp is going to live forever as a niche tool for people who "get" it. To be clear, I'm not complaining about Lisp, I think Lisp is the best language (Except for Joy, which is even better, IMO. If not cleanly separated in the implementation structure, the cross product of test cases are needed. Out of curiousity, what would be a practical application of this? From button-tufted headboards and sofas to shimmering gold-finished tables and baroque wall mirrors, Willa Arlo Interiors offers the perfect pop of posh to add to your elegant ae It feels quite powerful and the syntax is pretty easy to understand. It has never materialized in my style of Python code. And most importantly, I like getting feedback from the editor as I'm typing rather than having to write code then run tests, then write some more and perhaps modify the tests, etc. But other than really personal projects and self explorations (which I also did with haskell, julia, rust, coq) I struggle to find a way to use a form of lisp for something I can do in work every day other than configuring emacs (which is not as bad). And I agree with them on that point (wholeheartedly in fact). Saját könyvtáram. > call these things macros, or syntactic extensions. Aj vs povetkin live - Aj vs seth rollins; Aj vy ste Blázni ako ja? It all blends together into a disorienting fog. For example in Haskell almost all of the abstractions (Monoid, Semgroup) use property-based testing rather than proofs. This can assumed to be always false for production code. Compiling a languages looping facility to something recursive is simple. Static types are testing, it doesn't replace it, but massively saves mechanical work on writing dozens of dumb tests. All juniors would think this is the best way to get a stable codebase. And this is why "holding invariants in my head" doesn't scale. Invariants are unchangeable properties that hold for all variables of a given type. I have found myself looking for a thing like let in Python though. Can someone please recommend a situation or common daily task that I can deal with using some version of lisp, in order to learn it little by little without forcing me to learn it all upfront and it is not just emacs? It was a mess. These are all things that you could work on in various ways on a daily basis if you want? So the inexperience argument is very much relevant. Any language with intrinsically interesting features tends to attract inexperienced (or just bad) developers who don’t appreciate the tradeoffs of their tools and design decisions, and think the tool is a panacea. After fixing those, more system testing showed some more bugs, but we were able to assess these in the context of the design and fix them at the root cause rather than just hacking on patches. The macro should check the syntax of the forms. You can argue that for any given static analysis system, the kinds of claims it lets you check are not that useful in practice, and I would agree in many situations.
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